The Five Levels of Listening

WEBVTT

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There's something really transformative about

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that. Someone who just really gets you and when

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you can feel that. And so listening in a lot

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of ways is one of the greatest gifts we can give

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other people. All right, welcome everyone to

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Making Yourself Clear. I'm Chris. I'm Patrick.

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And we will be exploring topics we find interesting

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on the overarching themes of clarity of thought

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and communication. Today we're going to talk

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about the five levels of listening. If we're

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looking to improve the way that we communicate

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with people, one of the key pieces is the way

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that we listen, right? It's not just about what

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I have to say, but it's about what's being communicated

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back to me. And being able to listen effectively

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is a huge piece. Absolutely. And we were talking

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about this before the show. We take it for granted

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that people would see the value in getting good

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at listening, but it might be worth saying a

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few words. just to really underscore the point.

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There are lots of people out there who feel like

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they're excellent communicators who have terrible

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listening skills. So I feel like it would be

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an oversight for us to talk only about the way

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in which we communicate and not to cover the

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way that we listen to other people. So, yeah.

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Yeah, I would argue that listening is the more

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important part of communication. Putting words

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together that represent your thoughts and ideas

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is one thing, but in a dialogue back and forth,

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it's really getting where the other person's

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coming from. And being attuned to them allows

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you to make sure that what you say next is actually

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relevant to the other person. And so you get

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in touch with where are they coming from, where

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are they at, and it'll inform what you say and

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make the conversation much better. So that's

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one thing. My old high school English teacher

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used to always say, there's a reason you have

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two ears and one mouth. We've all had the experience,

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I would imagine, of talking to someone and then

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getting the sense that they're not listening.

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in real time you can just tell they're distracted

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maybe they're looking at their phone yeah their

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minds wandering they're just not present or the

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thing they say next just doesn't resonate at

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all with what you were trying to communicate

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and it it can feel like almost uh like getting

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t -boned in an intersection with your car like

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you're headed this way and then what they say

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feels like it's just coming out of left field

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and you realize you're totally disconnected and

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that that's like a it's a lost opportunity communication

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is one of the main ways we connect with other

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people. And when you're vibing and you're on

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the same page as somebody, it's a real source

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of closeness and connection and understanding.

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And that's like, it's a way that we bond and

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feel like we're not alone in the world. Yeah.

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Well, and conversely, if you've had the experience

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of someone who's a really good listener, especially

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if you're sharing something that matters. Yes.

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Maybe you're going through something, it's a

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difficult time. And you've got just someone that's

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really good at just getting you. And there can

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be something super healing and nourishing. And

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there's something really transformative about

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that. Someone who just really gets you and when

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you can feel that. And so listening in a lot

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of ways is one of the greatest gifts we can give

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other people. Yeah, for sure. I mean, I can remember

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times in my life where I have had, you know,

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a dysregulation in one way or another or like

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major conflict. Just sitting down with someone

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who, who was willing to listen and who listened

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on that level of just deep understanding. And

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there's a sense of being deeply felt and deeply

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seen when someone listens well. Yeah, absolutely.

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And especially given how rare it is, it's like,

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uh, you notice it, you can feel it. And in fact,

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there are whole professions built around this

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therapy, right? Therapists jobs mostly are to

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listen. Uh, and we both do. various forms of

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coaching. And that's why it's very similar. Most

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of that job is listening. And often if you listen

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well enough, you don't have to say much. Correct.

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Yeah. It's about what you say and when you say

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it. And the way to find those moments is through

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listening. Yeah. So maybe without further ado,

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we're going to dive into one framework for thinking

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about different levels of listening. This is

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called the five levels of listening. And each

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level represents like a category shift in terms

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of the quality of your listening. Yeah. And I

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would argue the first two levels that we're going

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to talk about here don't really represent listening

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in any way, shape or form. It's kind of, you

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sort of have to get to level three before you're

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actually listening to a person, I would argue.

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Absolutely. But the first two are in the model

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because that's where a lot of people live a lot

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of the time. We spend a lot of time in levels

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one and two. Yeah. So why don't we dive in and

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start with level one of listening, which is called.

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Interrupting. Yeah, so interrupting. Pretty straightforward,

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right? If you're having a conversation with a

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person and they're talking and you're just waiting

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for them to shut up and then rather than wait

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for them to finish, you just step over them.

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It's one of the most common forms and one of

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the least effective forms of listening. Yeah,

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and often if you're the listener, what this can

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feel like for you is, oh, somebody gets partway

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through what they're going to say and... You

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have this thought like, oh, I know where they're

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going with this. I know what they're going to

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say next. They don't need to say it. And then

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you just jump in with your response. Yeah. It

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might be that you feel you're really good at

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finishing other people's sentences. I have some

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people in my life who are like that, right? They

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think that they know what the next sentence is

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going to be and they finish my sentences for

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me. And then I have this sense of like, well,

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no, that's not where I was going with that. So,

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yeah. Sometimes it is, which is interesting.

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Like sometimes people do finish each other's

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sentences and it works, but it's risky because

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you may. here the first part i've had this experience

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a lot where i'm trying to explain some view i

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have of a complex topic and i'm trying to build

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to it in stages and so we'll start with like

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some background context and then the other person

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assumes they know where i'm going with it and

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then they respond to that right and and i get

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frustrated because it's like no i'm just getting

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warmed up here and where i'm actually trying

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to go with this is way more interesting yeah

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but now i don't get to go there and so i'm frustrated

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I feel like the thing I was actually trying to

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communicate was blocked or thwarted. So there's

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a feeling like your thoughts weren't valued?

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It doesn't give the person, the speaker, the

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opportunity to really complete their thought.

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And it feels jarring. It can feel disrespectful

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or dismissive. Right. And this is sadly the most

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common thing. And you probably see this all the

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time, especially, and maybe you do it. Maybe

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you do the interrupting. Maybe you've been interrupted.

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And it's habitual, right? In a group setting,

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it can result, or even one -on -one, it can result

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in the person with the more dominant personality

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taking up all the airtime and all the space in

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the conversation and the other person just feels

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diminished or pushed to the side. Yeah, I can

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think of, you know, a few dinner conversations

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where I've gotten to the point where I've just

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sort of been like, okay, well, I'm going to let

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them have the conch and they can have the conversation

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and I'll just, I'll wait for dessert. Yeah, exactly.

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So level one is interrupting. Doesn't count as

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listening. But it's probably the most common

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thing that we do when we think we're listening.

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So don't do that. Our second level is waiting.

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So waiting for someone to finish their sentence.

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Kind of similar to interrupting, but there's

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a little more courtesy there. So you're letting

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someone actually finish their thought, finish

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their sentence. It's a little better than level

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one. But then you're still not really listening,

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right? Yeah, it's more polite because you're

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not literally interrupting the person. But what

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you are doing... is they're speaking but your

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attention is internal you're in your own head

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formulating what you're going to say next which

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means you're not paying attention to them or

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at best you're you're paying partial attention

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to them right and and half of your bandwidth

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or more is in your own head conjuring up what

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you're going to say next so you're mentally preparing

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and just waiting for your turn yeah so you might

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be getting some of the nuance and some of the

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substance of what it is they're saying but like

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chris just said you're just you're waiting your

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turn you've got this really great thing that

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may be halfway through their third or fourth

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sentence you thought of and oh i can't wait to

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say this i'm just gonna yeah okay yeah hurry

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up hurry up hurry up and then you get to say

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you're really clever piece right and if you're

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the speaker you can sense when this is going

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on too like you probably appreciate not being

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interrupted but you can sense that the listener

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isn't really engaged and they're more interested

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in what they want to say than they are interested

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in really receiving and processing and digesting

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what it is you're trying to communicate. Yeah.

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Yeah. I've definitely come across people like

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that in my life where they're there and they're

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there, but there's, there's almost like an emptiness

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in their eyes because they're just, they're focused

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on what it is they're going to say. And then

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as soon as I close my mouth, just like out with

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whatever great thing that they've been holding

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on to, maybe it's, you know, a clever witticism

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or, uh, or. Whatever point they want to make

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next. Whatever point they want to make next.

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But yeah, it really gives me the sense of like,

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oh, this is not a conversation. It's just you,

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you know, waiting for your time. You're trading

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monologues more than you're actually in a dialogue.

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And there's body language that goes with this

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too. Like maybe you're looking impatient and

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you're kind of like tense or you might be tapping

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your foot or like there's a sense of impatience

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in the other person. Right. Because they want

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to be interrupting. And they're exercising discipline

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to bite their tongue and not interrupt. Yeah.

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Yeah. They're being a good interrupt. They're

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showing a lot of discipline. Right. Yeah. So

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it's, it's, but they're having to force themselves

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against their will to just not talk. And that's,

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they still don't actually want to hear what you

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have to say. Right. It's evident. So technically

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they're not interrupting, but, but it's a long

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way from quality listening because they would

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rather be talking. Yeah. So this is another one

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that shows up very commonly, right? Those first

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two levels, like Chris said earlier. Probably

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the most common that we come across. And then

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we've got our third level, which is mirroring.

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Yeah, and mirroring, basically, this is where

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listening actually starts. This is the first

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level that I would consider really listening

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in any meaningful way. And what defines listening

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is you actually hear the content of what's being

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said and get it well enough that you could paraphrase

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or repeat back to them what they said. And then

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they would... agree that, okay, yes, that is

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what I said, or that's the gist of what I said.

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You might even ask questions like, okay, here's

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what I'm hearing you say. Is that right? Yeah.

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So I mean, literally mirroring, right? Here's

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what I heard you say. You might rephrase it in

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your own words, but here's what I heard you say.

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And then checking in, the check -in's a huge

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part, right? Did I actually get a sense of what

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it is you're saying? And that's super validating

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as the speaker is just to have someone say like,

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Did I actually get you or is there another piece

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that I'm missing? Because I'd love for you to

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clarify and I'd love to continue to listen, you

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know, more and listen better. Yeah. And by doing

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that, now you're actually demonstrating an interest

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in what they're saying and an interest in really

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understanding them because you're feeding it

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back to them and giving them an opportunity to

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confirm. Yes, you got that right. Or maybe no,

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not quite. Or yes, but you missed a piece. Yeah.

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And it's leaning in with that curiosity and a

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genuine desire. to really get what they're saying

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and giving them an opportunity to go back and

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forth until they feel like, yeah, you got it.

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So this is great. It requires more focus than

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the other two. Yeah, super validating for the

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person who's speaking at this point. And it's

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actually, this is where being in conversation

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with someone starts to become enjoyable, right?

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When they're actually listening and they're getting

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a sense for what it is that you're feeling. If

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you've done any kind of couples therapy or...

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communication training, this is a really common

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technique. Couples therapists will do this all

00:11:52.100 --> 00:11:54.539
the time. Two partners come in and they've been

00:11:54.539 --> 00:11:57.919
struggling to communicate and they will facilitate

00:11:57.919 --> 00:12:00.419
this kind of mirroring exercise where one partner

00:12:00.419 --> 00:12:02.679
will speak for a while, the other one will mirror

00:12:02.679 --> 00:12:05.779
back, and they'll take turns. And this alone

00:12:05.779 --> 00:12:10.539
can go a long way to really breaking dysfunctional

00:12:10.539 --> 00:12:13.919
gridlock in communication. There can be a bit

00:12:13.919 --> 00:12:16.000
of a pitfall there. It can feel like If you're

00:12:16.000 --> 00:12:17.759
just kind of parroting back what the person said

00:12:17.759 --> 00:12:20.620
to you. So you want a bit robotic. Yeah. So I

00:12:20.620 --> 00:12:22.480
think paraphrasing is a big part of mirroring

00:12:22.480 --> 00:12:24.259
because if you're paraphrasing, then it's not

00:12:24.259 --> 00:12:26.340
so much, you're just parroting back what they

00:12:26.340 --> 00:12:28.879
said, but there's actually some, um, some, some

00:12:28.879 --> 00:12:31.320
interplay there. Yeah. That's a very good point.

00:12:31.399 --> 00:12:33.399
Cause it's, if you're just repeating the literal

00:12:33.399 --> 00:12:36.080
words, it feels a bit weird. But if you're saying,

00:12:36.120 --> 00:12:37.519
here's what I think I'm hearing you say, and

00:12:37.519 --> 00:12:39.559
you say it in your own words, maybe it's a little

00:12:39.559 --> 00:12:43.000
more concise. Super effective. Yeah. And it's

00:12:43.000 --> 00:12:45.580
a huge step forward from levels one and two.

00:12:45.720 --> 00:12:48.159
Absolutely. And we've got two more levels to

00:12:48.159 --> 00:12:50.500
get to. Two more levels to get to. So level four

00:12:50.500 --> 00:12:53.940
is sensing. So what do we mean when we say sensing,

00:12:54.019 --> 00:12:57.460
Chris? Yeah. So sensing includes everything we

00:12:57.460 --> 00:13:00.519
talked about under mirroring. But now you're

00:13:00.519 --> 00:13:03.559
not just, as the listener, you're not just able

00:13:03.559 --> 00:13:06.639
to repeat back the content, the literal meaning

00:13:06.639 --> 00:13:08.820
of what they said, but now you're more attuned.

00:13:09.320 --> 00:13:11.200
Not just to what they're saying, but how they're

00:13:11.200 --> 00:13:13.279
saying it. So that would include body language,

00:13:13.519 --> 00:13:17.019
their tone of voice, their energy level, all

00:13:17.019 --> 00:13:18.860
of these emotional cues. Maybe they frowned,

00:13:18.919 --> 00:13:20.659
maybe they smiled, maybe they had a little twinkle

00:13:20.659 --> 00:13:22.600
in their eye when they got to a certain point.

00:13:23.080 --> 00:13:26.720
And so now you're attuned to that. And you might

00:13:26.720 --> 00:13:28.519
not just say, hey, here's what I heard you say,

00:13:28.620 --> 00:13:31.039
but it's, hey, you seemed really moved by that.

00:13:31.059 --> 00:13:33.080
Right. Or you seemed really excited by this piece.

00:13:33.159 --> 00:13:35.320
Can you say more about that? Yeah. So there's

00:13:35.320 --> 00:13:38.059
mirroring in there, but it's also those other

00:13:38.059 --> 00:13:41.250
pieces like, So this is when we're really heavily

00:13:41.250 --> 00:13:44.509
involved in the discussion, in the conversation.

00:13:44.850 --> 00:13:48.129
And there's not so much distraction. We're really

00:13:48.129 --> 00:13:50.970
focused on the other person in this case. As

00:13:50.970 --> 00:13:53.269
the speaker, you will feel a different level

00:13:53.269 --> 00:13:56.350
of presence in the listener. Yeah. They're not

00:13:56.350 --> 00:13:58.730
just getting the content. They're really, they're

00:13:58.730 --> 00:14:01.129
leaning in. There's probably more eye contact.

00:14:01.450 --> 00:14:04.590
And you'll just feel them with you. in a deeper

00:14:04.590 --> 00:14:06.710
way because now they're attuned to the emotional

00:14:06.710 --> 00:14:09.950
content they're really trying to get you in the

00:14:09.950 --> 00:14:12.309
fullness of your experience not just the not

00:14:12.309 --> 00:14:14.870
just the semantics of the words you strung together

00:14:14.870 --> 00:14:17.529
yeah well and what's nice about that too is when

00:14:17.529 --> 00:14:20.490
we're doing that sensing piece is it can reflect

00:14:20.490 --> 00:14:22.450
back to a person something that maybe they didn't

00:14:22.450 --> 00:14:24.789
know that they were even communicating right

00:14:24.789 --> 00:14:27.730
like there are those those subtle pieces of body

00:14:27.730 --> 00:14:30.190
language those little nuances like Hey, I noticed

00:14:30.190 --> 00:14:32.129
when you were speaking that, you know, you furrowed

00:14:32.129 --> 00:14:34.350
your brow or your eyes dropped or whatever it

00:14:34.350 --> 00:14:35.769
is that you notice, you know, your shoulders

00:14:35.769 --> 00:14:38.070
slumped. People might not even realize that about

00:14:38.070 --> 00:14:39.929
themselves that, you know, hey, when I talk about

00:14:39.929 --> 00:14:43.149
my work or my father or my relationship or whatever

00:14:43.149 --> 00:14:45.590
it is. And one way this shows up is say someone

00:14:45.590 --> 00:14:48.049
comes to you and they're contemplating a decision

00:14:48.049 --> 00:14:51.610
or a choice and they're looking for advice. What

00:14:51.610 --> 00:14:53.049
should I do? Which job should I take? Right.

00:14:53.129 --> 00:14:54.669
And maybe they've got three options on the table

00:14:54.669 --> 00:14:58.210
and they're describing each of them. you may

00:14:58.210 --> 00:15:00.990
notice that they have a lot more energy around

00:15:00.990 --> 00:15:03.629
one of the options. And with the other two, they're

00:15:03.629 --> 00:15:06.309
doing the rational pros and cons thing, right?

00:15:06.429 --> 00:15:08.330
You know, this one maybe has more stability and

00:15:08.330 --> 00:15:09.889
it's closer to home and blah, blah, blah. But

00:15:09.889 --> 00:15:12.509
if their tone is flat, and then they talk about

00:15:12.509 --> 00:15:15.049
another job where maybe it's less practical.

00:15:15.169 --> 00:15:18.029
And so in the pros and cons on a piece of paper,

00:15:18.169 --> 00:15:19.750
it doesn't seem as good. But if their energy

00:15:19.750 --> 00:15:22.789
is much more electric, you can reflect that back

00:15:22.789 --> 00:15:24.549
to them and say, well, I noticed that as you

00:15:24.549 --> 00:15:27.879
were describing job number one, It was all the

00:15:27.879 --> 00:15:29.659
rational reasons why it's good on paper, but

00:15:29.659 --> 00:15:32.679
the tone seemed kind of monotone. And then when

00:15:32.679 --> 00:15:34.899
you talked about job number two, which maybe

00:15:34.899 --> 00:15:37.179
is a bit more of a stretch or a bit out of left

00:15:37.179 --> 00:15:39.159
field, you got really excited. Yeah. Does that

00:15:39.159 --> 00:15:41.799
resonate with your experience? And then the other

00:15:41.799 --> 00:15:44.080
person at that point might have a realization

00:15:44.080 --> 00:15:45.779
that they wouldn't have had otherwise because

00:15:45.779 --> 00:15:48.600
of the depth of your listening. That's right.

00:15:48.659 --> 00:15:50.559
In this way, you're really helping other people

00:15:50.559 --> 00:15:53.500
gain some insight about themselves. One of the

00:15:53.500 --> 00:15:55.139
quirks about being human is it's always so much

00:15:55.139 --> 00:15:57.240
easier for us to read other people than it is

00:15:57.240 --> 00:15:59.019
for us to see ourselves clearly. Absolutely.

00:15:59.360 --> 00:16:01.320
And this is where you can really be valuable

00:16:01.320 --> 00:16:03.840
to somebody, not necessarily by telling them

00:16:03.840 --> 00:16:07.259
what to do, but by just reflecting back to them

00:16:07.259 --> 00:16:10.360
what you're reading in between the lines or in

00:16:10.360 --> 00:16:12.279
their emotional content as they talk about it.

00:16:12.379 --> 00:16:15.100
Yeah. And so that sort of transitions into this

00:16:15.100 --> 00:16:17.279
final level of listening, the fifth level, which

00:16:17.279 --> 00:16:19.340
is the highest level of listening, which we call

00:16:19.340 --> 00:16:21.919
transformative listening. When we're listening

00:16:21.919 --> 00:16:23.860
in such a way that it actually transforms the

00:16:23.860 --> 00:16:27.220
conversation or it transforms the speaker or

00:16:27.220 --> 00:16:29.899
potentially the listener or both or the relationship

00:16:29.899 --> 00:16:33.559
between the two of you. So something is transformative

00:16:33.559 --> 00:16:38.100
within the conversation. Yeah, now this level

00:16:38.100 --> 00:16:42.799
of listening is by far the least common and often

00:16:42.799 --> 00:16:45.679
involves some level of training and practice

00:16:45.679 --> 00:16:48.179
to really cultivate this level of attunement.

00:16:48.490 --> 00:16:50.990
And even with that, like there's a level of mastery

00:16:50.990 --> 00:16:53.029
there that it really, you know, it takes a lot,

00:16:53.070 --> 00:16:55.570
like you said, you know. And it's hard to describe

00:16:55.570 --> 00:16:58.149
for that reason. Because up until now, you've

00:16:58.149 --> 00:17:01.690
probably had the experience of being listened

00:17:01.690 --> 00:17:04.529
to at each of the first levels. And you may even

00:17:04.529 --> 00:17:07.210
have listened to someone else at one point or

00:17:07.210 --> 00:17:09.910
another at each of the first four levels. To

00:17:09.910 --> 00:17:12.230
describe level five, it might start to get a

00:17:12.230 --> 00:17:14.690
little bit esoteric and kind of hard to pin down,

00:17:14.789 --> 00:17:15.990
but we'll give it a shot. We're going to do the

00:17:15.990 --> 00:17:18.819
best we can. I feel like what you mentioned with

00:17:18.819 --> 00:17:22.059
the level four, with the job piece, that's sort

00:17:22.059 --> 00:17:24.859
of moving into that level five, that transformative,

00:17:25.099 --> 00:17:27.140
like, hey, I noticed when you were speaking about

00:17:27.140 --> 00:17:31.200
this, you were flat, you were monotone. And then

00:17:31.200 --> 00:17:33.220
when you were speaking about the other job, you

00:17:33.220 --> 00:17:36.220
seemed very excited. It was something that you

00:17:36.220 --> 00:17:38.440
were excited to talk to me about, right? What

00:17:38.440 --> 00:17:41.319
do you think that means? And so when you offer

00:17:41.319 --> 00:17:43.119
that question up, what do you think that means?

00:17:43.480 --> 00:17:45.759
Now you're transforming the conversation and

00:17:45.759 --> 00:17:47.940
you're transforming that person's relationship

00:17:47.940 --> 00:17:49.920
to the information that they've just shared with

00:17:49.920 --> 00:17:52.920
you. So they've given you this information like,

00:17:52.980 --> 00:17:54.619
well, here's what do you think I should do? And

00:17:54.619 --> 00:17:56.759
then you're giving it back to them saying like,

00:17:56.799 --> 00:17:59.099
here's what I heard. I don't know what you should

00:17:59.099 --> 00:18:01.640
do, but based on this information, what do you

00:18:01.640 --> 00:18:03.559
think you should do? Right. Here's what I noticed

00:18:03.559 --> 00:18:06.480
as you were sharing that information. And then

00:18:06.480 --> 00:18:09.859
you're inviting them to reflect on it. What do

00:18:09.859 --> 00:18:11.819
you think that says? Is there an insight to be

00:18:11.819 --> 00:18:13.859
had there? And you're prompting them to do some

00:18:13.859 --> 00:18:17.740
deeper reflection. That's a good taste of the

00:18:17.740 --> 00:18:21.119
beginnings of level five listening. You can even

00:18:21.119 --> 00:18:24.960
go deeper where the way we present ourselves

00:18:24.960 --> 00:18:27.339
externally, right? Which is how we're showing

00:18:27.339 --> 00:18:31.380
up, our energy, our body language. And that's

00:18:31.380 --> 00:18:33.440
what I would call kind of our external self,

00:18:33.539 --> 00:18:35.319
right? The self we're presenting to the world.

00:18:35.339 --> 00:18:37.200
And it may even be like, if we're being authentic,

00:18:37.440 --> 00:18:39.940
that's the self that we're experiencing ourself

00:18:39.940 --> 00:18:43.680
to be in that moment. That's not always our higher

00:18:43.680 --> 00:18:46.740
self. So transformative listening is when you

00:18:46.740 --> 00:18:50.240
can listen through that and really it's almost

00:18:50.240 --> 00:18:53.799
like you're peering into someone's soul and getting

00:18:53.799 --> 00:18:56.579
at the essence of what's most important to them

00:18:56.579 --> 00:18:58.359
and what's driving them. And they may not even

00:18:58.359 --> 00:19:00.039
be able to see it. It might not even be on their

00:19:00.039 --> 00:19:03.099
radar screen. Yeah. So I can remember a situation

00:19:03.099 --> 00:19:04.900
where I was having a conversation with a client

00:19:04.900 --> 00:19:07.019
and she was talking to me about it was a job

00:19:07.019 --> 00:19:08.799
and she was saying, you know, I've been offered

00:19:08.799 --> 00:19:12.970
this job. It's really exciting. But. And they're

00:19:12.970 --> 00:19:14.970
asking me to come in for five days out of the

00:19:14.970 --> 00:19:17.049
week and I can really only do four, but it's

00:19:17.049 --> 00:19:18.690
a great opportunity and I should really take

00:19:18.690 --> 00:19:21.470
it. But it's going to mean that I can't spend

00:19:21.470 --> 00:19:24.410
time with my son. She had a son who was six years

00:19:24.410 --> 00:19:25.970
old and she really wanted to spend time with

00:19:25.970 --> 00:19:28.849
him. And so I posed the question back to her.

00:19:28.930 --> 00:19:30.829
I said, well, because she was a coach too. And

00:19:30.829 --> 00:19:32.609
I said, well, what would you say to someone if

00:19:32.609 --> 00:19:35.109
they had come to you and said, you know, I'm

00:19:35.109 --> 00:19:38.109
going to have to make sacrifices where I don't

00:19:38.109 --> 00:19:40.509
get to see my family. on the basis that I want

00:19:40.509 --> 00:19:42.009
to see them. I don't get to see my son grow up

00:19:42.009 --> 00:19:44.490
the way I want to see him grow up. And she had

00:19:44.490 --> 00:19:46.009
an epiphany there where she was like, I didn't

00:19:46.009 --> 00:19:49.029
even realize I was saying that. But yeah, I feel

00:19:49.029 --> 00:19:51.710
she felt, you know, truly heard in that moment.

00:19:51.750 --> 00:19:53.690
She said that and she said, thank you. And then

00:19:53.690 --> 00:19:55.650
she went back and she said to them, you know,

00:19:55.650 --> 00:19:58.230
I can't take the job. I have to spend time with

00:19:58.230 --> 00:20:00.910
my son. And then they came back to her a week

00:20:00.910 --> 00:20:02.549
later and said, hey, we're willing to meet whatever

00:20:02.549 --> 00:20:05.210
concessions you need. Fantastic. Fantastic. So

00:20:05.210 --> 00:20:07.789
that's, I think that's maybe the key ingredient.

00:20:08.299 --> 00:20:10.960
Patrick that you just illustrated which was something

00:20:10.960 --> 00:20:12.640
in the way that you were listening to her you

00:20:12.640 --> 00:20:16.019
saw something about her that was deeply valuable

00:20:16.019 --> 00:20:20.180
that she hadn't even seen in herself even though

00:20:20.180 --> 00:20:22.440
the words came out of her mouth it was even it

00:20:22.440 --> 00:20:24.420
was there but she wasn't aware of it right and

00:20:24.420 --> 00:20:26.839
so that's like one of those aha moments one of

00:20:26.839 --> 00:20:30.440
those those transformative insights that can

00:20:30.440 --> 00:20:33.319
change a person's uh either decision or in some

00:20:33.319 --> 00:20:36.380
cases it can change the course of their life

00:20:36.380 --> 00:20:38.319
yeah well and and it's something that i've heard

00:20:38.319 --> 00:20:40.019
you say and it's something i've heard some some

00:20:40.019 --> 00:20:41.980
of our other colleagues say you know listening

00:20:41.980 --> 00:20:44.099
to the person's commitment right so listening

00:20:44.099 --> 00:20:46.599
through the words for the commitment it's you

00:20:46.599 --> 00:20:48.740
had mentioned before we started recording actually

00:20:48.740 --> 00:20:51.680
um if someone comes in and they're upset or they're

00:20:51.680 --> 00:20:53.839
angry if you're listening for their commitment

00:20:53.839 --> 00:20:57.000
you might hear something that past that anger

00:20:57.000 --> 00:21:00.759
that you know is well oh okay now i know what

00:21:00.759 --> 00:21:02.579
you're committed to and then if you can bring

00:21:02.579 --> 00:21:04.779
that to them You can transform the conversation

00:21:04.779 --> 00:21:06.839
from a place of anger, and maybe you can transform

00:21:06.839 --> 00:21:10.839
that anger into passion. That frustration might

00:21:10.839 --> 00:21:12.779
be coming from a point of passion, right? Absolutely.

00:21:13.160 --> 00:21:16.079
And this is where we talked a minute ago about

00:21:16.079 --> 00:21:19.579
our external self. Somebody might show up really

00:21:19.579 --> 00:21:22.119
angry about something, and it's like they're

00:21:22.119 --> 00:21:25.000
just full of rage and there's a complaint. And

00:21:25.000 --> 00:21:26.799
if you're on the other end of it, even if they're

00:21:26.799 --> 00:21:30.420
not complaining about you, what you see first

00:21:30.420 --> 00:21:34.250
is the anger, right? Level four listening might

00:21:34.250 --> 00:21:35.930
say, oh, I can see that you're really upset about

00:21:35.930 --> 00:21:39.829
this. Yeah. Right? And that's accurate. But if

00:21:39.829 --> 00:21:41.910
you get stuck at the superficial level of the

00:21:41.910 --> 00:21:44.450
anger, that's one thing. But listening beyond

00:21:44.450 --> 00:21:49.029
that, why is a person angry? Well, there's something

00:21:49.029 --> 00:21:51.630
that they value that feels like it's being threatened

00:21:51.630 --> 00:21:54.369
or violated. Yeah. Right? Maybe there's a principle

00:21:54.369 --> 00:21:59.170
or just a personal value or a commitment they

00:21:59.170 --> 00:22:02.950
have to making things better. Right. Most people

00:22:02.950 --> 00:22:04.690
have experienced something like this in the workplace

00:22:04.690 --> 00:22:10.309
where maybe the dynamic gets dysfunctional over

00:22:10.309 --> 00:22:11.950
time within a group. Maybe a project's running

00:22:11.950 --> 00:22:14.890
behind or maybe there's a reorg and now there's

00:22:14.890 --> 00:22:18.170
all this bureaucracy and friction and people

00:22:18.170 --> 00:22:21.029
get really upset and the morale tanks and then

00:22:21.029 --> 00:22:24.630
your star performers are angry. And if you're

00:22:24.630 --> 00:22:27.450
just interacting with them in response to the

00:22:27.450 --> 00:22:30.500
anger, you miss the broader point. And then you

00:22:30.500 --> 00:22:32.140
might get defensive and say, well, you know,

00:22:32.160 --> 00:22:34.059
we're doing the best we can as management here

00:22:34.059 --> 00:22:35.700
and you need to just blah, blah, blah. And now

00:22:35.700 --> 00:22:38.259
you're pushing back and forth because you're

00:22:38.259 --> 00:22:41.380
interacting with the initial presentation, which

00:22:41.380 --> 00:22:44.440
is the anger. Whereas instead of interacting

00:22:44.440 --> 00:22:47.619
on that level, like a really good leader would

00:22:47.619 --> 00:22:50.500
say something like, hey, what I hear is that

00:22:50.500 --> 00:22:53.920
you have a deep commitment to something better.

00:22:54.220 --> 00:22:57.079
You have a deep commitment to quality and that

00:22:57.079 --> 00:22:59.700
the way we've been operating. is falling short

00:22:59.700 --> 00:23:02.500
of that. And now you've touched their heart because

00:23:02.500 --> 00:23:04.819
you've gotten to the value and the commitment

00:23:04.819 --> 00:23:06.960
and the positive thing that they're standing

00:23:06.960 --> 00:23:09.559
for. And they may not even know that because

00:23:09.559 --> 00:23:11.519
they're overcome with anger. That's what we feel

00:23:11.519 --> 00:23:14.920
first is this sucks. This is broken. What I hear

00:23:14.920 --> 00:23:16.960
is you're really committed to doing things better.

00:23:17.099 --> 00:23:19.960
And I want to support you in that. And that's

00:23:19.960 --> 00:23:22.359
a completely different conversation from pushing

00:23:22.359 --> 00:23:24.940
back on the initial anger. That's a perfect example

00:23:24.940 --> 00:23:27.079
of transforming the conversation, right? I've

00:23:27.079 --> 00:23:29.680
taken that piece where I've got, um, what could

00:23:29.680 --> 00:23:32.240
have been a conflict. And I've transformed that

00:23:32.240 --> 00:23:35.559
conversation from a conflict into, okay, well,

00:23:35.660 --> 00:23:37.619
well, how can we work together? And now we're

00:23:37.619 --> 00:23:39.599
back on the same team and, you know, it might

00:23:39.599 --> 00:23:42.160
take some work, but I'm, I'm here and I'm willing

00:23:42.160 --> 00:23:44.940
to, and then you see that person soften and you

00:23:44.940 --> 00:23:47.299
see that person see that acknowledgement and

00:23:47.299 --> 00:23:49.099
that, okay, yeah, we're on the same team. So

00:23:49.099 --> 00:23:52.160
now we can work together. Yeah, absolutely. And

00:23:52.160 --> 00:23:53.859
it, it has the conversation go very differently.

00:23:53.859 --> 00:23:55.839
So it transforms the trajectory of the conversation,

00:23:56.019 --> 00:23:58.809
but it can also. really shift a person's emotional

00:23:58.809 --> 00:24:00.789
state and get them out of the anger and get them

00:24:00.789 --> 00:24:03.470
into a place of actually of inspiration. Yeah.

00:24:03.970 --> 00:24:06.309
Right. Instead of complaint mode and problem

00:24:06.309 --> 00:24:08.569
mode, it's, oh, solution mode. You're right.

00:24:08.630 --> 00:24:10.549
I am committed to something better. Yeah. And

00:24:10.549 --> 00:24:13.829
you might often see like an exhale, like, ah,

00:24:13.910 --> 00:24:16.730
there's almost a sigh of relief, a feeling of

00:24:16.730 --> 00:24:18.750
being unburdened when somebody gets you on that

00:24:18.750 --> 00:24:20.589
level. And then you can get to work and then

00:24:20.589 --> 00:24:22.490
you can actually do something because you've

00:24:22.490 --> 00:24:25.190
put the anger somewhere. It's been heard. Yes.

00:24:25.269 --> 00:24:27.809
And now. you can shift into a different gear

00:24:27.809 --> 00:24:30.609
and you can take all of that frustration and

00:24:30.609 --> 00:24:33.710
anger and use that as fuel for something. To

00:24:33.710 --> 00:24:36.009
do something good. Greater. Yeah. Let's look

00:24:36.009 --> 00:24:38.869
at Martin Luther King, right? Right. Civil rights

00:24:38.869 --> 00:24:42.289
movement. There was lots to be angry about. Yeah.

00:24:42.450 --> 00:24:45.589
And people were angry and justifiably so. Yes.

00:24:46.930 --> 00:24:49.309
What he did that was really transformational

00:24:49.309 --> 00:24:51.630
was instead of saying, here's all the things

00:24:51.630 --> 00:24:54.710
that suck. His speech was not, I have a complaint.

00:24:54.910 --> 00:24:57.630
Right. Yeah. I have a dream. Yeah. And that's,

00:24:57.630 --> 00:25:00.150
you probably can't get a better example than

00:25:00.150 --> 00:25:01.910
that. I think that's a, yeah, that's a perfect

00:25:01.910 --> 00:25:05.990
way to put that. Yeah. Yeah. So how do you do

00:25:05.990 --> 00:25:07.549
this transformative listening? Because we just

00:25:07.549 --> 00:25:09.990
described what it is, what it feels like if a

00:25:09.990 --> 00:25:13.430
person's aspiring to practice listening at that

00:25:13.430 --> 00:25:15.710
level, how can they do that? Yeah. That's a great

00:25:15.710 --> 00:25:17.789
question. I think that one of the key pieces

00:25:17.789 --> 00:25:19.589
is what we identified earlier, listening for

00:25:19.589 --> 00:25:22.319
the commitment. If there's a way where you can

00:25:22.319 --> 00:25:25.099
identify that small nugget is what is this person

00:25:25.099 --> 00:25:27.039
committed to? Okay, I hear the words that they're

00:25:27.039 --> 00:25:30.220
saying, but what's underneath it, right? Really

00:25:30.220 --> 00:25:32.799
drive at that. And that's something that you

00:25:32.799 --> 00:25:35.539
can try and clarify. Like I hear you saying X,

00:25:35.680 --> 00:25:38.880
what I think that means is Y, am I in the right

00:25:38.880 --> 00:25:40.779
ballpark? How does that land? Does that resonate

00:25:40.779 --> 00:25:42.619
with you? Does that resonate? And you might be

00:25:42.619 --> 00:25:44.759
totally off the mark, but when you're asking

00:25:44.759 --> 00:25:47.750
for clarification, at least that person. gets

00:25:47.750 --> 00:25:50.210
the sense that you're committed to the conversation

00:25:50.210 --> 00:25:52.609
and you're committed to listening to them. Yes.

00:25:52.690 --> 00:25:55.029
And if you're listening for what they're committed

00:25:55.029 --> 00:25:57.789
to, you also want to be listening for their higher

00:25:57.789 --> 00:26:00.950
self. If someone comes in hot and heavy and they're

00:26:00.950 --> 00:26:02.390
angry, I could say, well, it sounds like you're

00:26:02.390 --> 00:26:04.710
committed to being right. Right. Which might

00:26:04.710 --> 00:26:07.470
be part of it, but that's deeper than that. So

00:26:07.470 --> 00:26:08.950
that's where you have to check yourself, right?

00:26:09.049 --> 00:26:12.289
Yeah. What's the positive value? So one way of

00:26:12.289 --> 00:26:14.930
looking at this transformative listening is there's

00:26:14.930 --> 00:26:17.390
three principles that you can... try to apply

00:26:17.390 --> 00:26:21.250
here in the, uh, their belief, interest and space.

00:26:21.970 --> 00:26:27.690
So belief is you're believing in what's best

00:26:27.690 --> 00:26:29.630
in that other person. So you're, this is assuming

00:26:29.630 --> 00:26:31.809
positive intent, right? We've talked about that

00:26:31.809 --> 00:26:34.230
before looking for the virtue, looking for the,

00:26:34.269 --> 00:26:36.950
the thing that you could align around. What's

00:26:36.950 --> 00:26:38.769
the, what's the value? What's the good thing

00:26:38.769 --> 00:26:41.470
here? Even if, even if it's hard to see and you've

00:26:41.470 --> 00:26:44.910
got to really squint because there's like, it's

00:26:44.910 --> 00:26:46.250
just, they're coming at you with a nasty gram.

00:26:46.450 --> 00:26:50.029
Yeah. What's the good thing that is buried underneath

00:26:50.029 --> 00:26:52.849
all of this? Right. Uh, and then the other thing,

00:26:52.869 --> 00:26:55.490
the other belief is that it's, it's in there

00:26:55.490 --> 00:26:57.650
and, and they can access it, right? Like you

00:26:57.650 --> 00:26:59.710
don't need to fix them or change them or tell

00:26:59.710 --> 00:27:02.450
them what to do or anything. It's just by listening

00:27:02.450 --> 00:27:06.390
well enough and, and. conducting yourself in

00:27:06.390 --> 00:27:07.950
the conversation in a particular way, they can

00:27:07.950 --> 00:27:09.769
access it and believing that they can and that

00:27:09.769 --> 00:27:12.390
ultimately they want to. Yeah. And that's always

00:27:12.390 --> 00:27:15.329
going to be best anyway when someone comes up

00:27:15.329 --> 00:27:17.650
with their own solution. Not telling them, not

00:27:17.650 --> 00:27:20.430
leading them, but just sort of listening for

00:27:20.430 --> 00:27:23.369
it. Listening for it. Yeah. So we talked about

00:27:23.369 --> 00:27:25.430
belief. The next one is interest. And another

00:27:25.430 --> 00:27:27.869
way of describing what this is, is just deep,

00:27:27.950 --> 00:27:31.710
genuine curiosity where you're not jumping to

00:27:32.240 --> 00:27:33.880
conclusion or an assumption about where they're

00:27:33.880 --> 00:27:36.640
coming from. You stay curious and you're trying

00:27:36.640 --> 00:27:39.539
to get them, trying to get their experience.

00:27:40.660 --> 00:27:42.960
We often truncate this process because someone

00:27:42.960 --> 00:27:45.500
will say a few things and it'll, it'll be similar

00:27:45.500 --> 00:27:47.799
enough to an experience we've had. And then we

00:27:47.799 --> 00:27:50.740
project onto them. Oh, when I had this thing

00:27:50.740 --> 00:27:52.460
happen, that was similar here. So I felt therefore

00:27:52.460 --> 00:27:55.539
that must be how they feel. Right. And, and sometimes

00:27:55.539 --> 00:27:57.400
that's right. Sometimes it gets you in the ballpark,

00:27:57.460 --> 00:28:00.400
but if you can stay curious. little longer yeah

00:28:00.400 --> 00:28:02.380
and ask more questions oh what was that like

00:28:02.380 --> 00:28:05.039
for you you know can you describe that oh okay

00:28:05.039 --> 00:28:07.440
and what was that like yeah staying in that inquiry

00:28:07.440 --> 00:28:09.619
until the person comes to their own conclusions

00:28:09.619 --> 00:28:11.359
where you're not again you're not spoon -feeding

00:28:11.359 --> 00:28:13.259
it to them and you're not giving them what you

00:28:13.259 --> 00:28:15.980
think they need to hear you're just staying in

00:28:15.980 --> 00:28:18.400
that staying staying inquisitive staying curious

00:28:18.400 --> 00:28:20.160
yeah and you're not trying to lead them where

00:28:20.160 --> 00:28:22.000
you think they should go yeah that's a big questions

00:28:22.000 --> 00:28:25.339
right you're actually just listening And with

00:28:25.339 --> 00:28:27.480
curiosity and remembering, reminding yourself

00:28:27.480 --> 00:28:29.759
that I may not get where they're coming from.

00:28:30.059 --> 00:28:32.519
Here's an example. My father died eight years

00:28:32.519 --> 00:28:38.759
ago. And obviously in the days and weeks afterwards,

00:28:39.000 --> 00:28:41.099
like that was mostly what was on my mind. We

00:28:41.099 --> 00:28:43.420
were grieving. And so whenever I saw somebody

00:28:43.420 --> 00:28:47.180
that I hadn't seen since it happened, like they

00:28:47.180 --> 00:28:49.519
would adopt a very compassionate, sympathetic,

00:28:49.680 --> 00:28:53.319
like, oh, how are you? And then that was very

00:28:53.319 --> 00:28:56.720
much appreciated because I felt cared for and,

00:28:56.720 --> 00:29:01.579
uh, and loved. And after a certain amount of

00:29:01.579 --> 00:29:03.380
time went by, like maybe it had been a month

00:29:03.380 --> 00:29:05.359
or six weeks and then I would run into someone

00:29:05.359 --> 00:29:08.259
else that I hadn't seen and they would still

00:29:08.259 --> 00:29:10.519
come at me with that same energy. And that might

00:29:10.519 --> 00:29:12.059
not have been where I was at in that moment because

00:29:12.059 --> 00:29:14.759
I've had six weeks to grieve. And at this point

00:29:14.759 --> 00:29:16.799
in the process, like, yeah, there were waves

00:29:16.799 --> 00:29:18.980
where grief would come over me, but there were

00:29:18.980 --> 00:29:22.430
also, there was a lot more time where. Life felt

00:29:22.430 --> 00:29:25.849
more like it was back to normal and somebody

00:29:25.849 --> 00:29:28.990
well -intended just because it's the first time

00:29:28.990 --> 00:29:30.789
that, that we've seen each other since it happened,

00:29:30.849 --> 00:29:33.569
they would, they would get into that caretaking

00:29:33.569 --> 00:29:36.250
kind of stance with me. And it didn't resonate

00:29:36.250 --> 00:29:39.029
because they didn't take the time to really read

00:29:39.029 --> 00:29:41.470
where I was at in that moment. Right. I mean,

00:29:41.470 --> 00:29:43.390
an assumption and projected, oh, his father just

00:29:43.390 --> 00:29:45.670
died or died recently. Therefore he must be grieving.

00:29:46.799 --> 00:29:48.759
without actually looking and saying, well, where's

00:29:48.759 --> 00:29:51.160
he at now? Is that what's present for him in

00:29:51.160 --> 00:29:53.299
this moment? And then interacting with that.

00:29:53.480 --> 00:29:56.400
Right. Yeah. Yeah. So making the assumption of,

00:29:56.460 --> 00:29:58.339
oh, I need to take care rather than saying like,

00:29:58.460 --> 00:30:00.559
how are you? How are things? Where are you at?

00:30:00.720 --> 00:30:03.440
Yeah. Pretty simple questions, but you know,

00:30:03.440 --> 00:30:05.599
when it's something that heavy, tough to ask.

00:30:06.359 --> 00:30:08.180
Yeah. And we just need to remind ourselves not

00:30:08.180 --> 00:30:10.779
to assume that we know what someone else is experiencing

00:30:10.779 --> 00:30:13.220
in any particular moment. Even if it seems obvious,

00:30:13.259 --> 00:30:16.740
it never hurts to stay curious. And then the

00:30:16.740 --> 00:30:18.700
last piece was space. So what we mean when we

00:30:18.700 --> 00:30:20.940
say space is, again, so staying in that inquiry,

00:30:21.220 --> 00:30:24.240
staying curious and giving the person space to

00:30:24.240 --> 00:30:26.119
say what it is they need to say and feel what

00:30:26.119 --> 00:30:28.400
it is they need to feel and move through that

00:30:28.400 --> 00:30:32.400
and not stop them and say like, hey, the emotions

00:30:32.400 --> 00:30:34.000
that you're feeling right now are wrong or bad,

00:30:34.200 --> 00:30:38.140
but just giving space and holding space for a

00:30:38.140 --> 00:30:41.279
person. Yeah. If you've asked a question and

00:30:41.279 --> 00:30:44.579
they don't have an answer right away. Lingering

00:30:44.579 --> 00:30:47.180
in that silence and giving them some room to

00:30:47.180 --> 00:30:50.420
explore. That's one of the best things that I've

00:30:50.420 --> 00:30:52.460
learned in having conversations and coaching

00:30:52.460 --> 00:30:56.420
people is what goes on in the unsaid. There's

00:30:56.420 --> 00:30:58.980
more happening there than you might imagine.

00:30:59.339 --> 00:31:02.579
If you just give people a chance to pause, reflect,

00:31:02.940 --> 00:31:07.539
think, you know, that silence is golden because

00:31:07.539 --> 00:31:09.380
that's where they're doing all of that processing,

00:31:09.599 --> 00:31:12.000
right? It's not just go, go, go all the time.

00:31:12.059 --> 00:31:15.259
We need time to sit back and think. So if you

00:31:15.259 --> 00:31:18.359
ask a question, you don't need to step on that

00:31:18.359 --> 00:31:21.519
silence. Absolutely. If someone is searching

00:31:21.519 --> 00:31:25.220
within, and this comes up in coaching calls all

00:31:25.220 --> 00:31:27.420
the time, I'll ask a question and someone will,

00:31:27.500 --> 00:31:30.039
I can tell that they're wrestling with it and

00:31:30.039 --> 00:31:32.619
they're searching inside themselves for some

00:31:32.619 --> 00:31:35.519
insight. And if they're engaged in that process,

00:31:35.619 --> 00:31:39.259
I don't say a word. I just hold space and let

00:31:39.259 --> 00:31:43.210
them do it. Because if I speak up too soon and

00:31:43.210 --> 00:31:45.569
say something, it might derail that process for

00:31:45.569 --> 00:31:47.690
them. And especially if they're going through

00:31:47.690 --> 00:31:49.190
something that might be uncomfortable, there

00:31:49.190 --> 00:31:52.390
can be an impulse to try to break the tension.

00:31:52.470 --> 00:31:54.730
Yes. But it's creative tension and you don't

00:31:54.730 --> 00:31:57.589
want to break it. You want to let them sit with

00:31:57.589 --> 00:32:00.269
it and grapple with it because that's where real

00:32:00.269 --> 00:32:02.109
breakthroughs and insights can happen. Absolutely.

00:32:02.210 --> 00:32:04.789
One of the things that we do when we do step

00:32:04.789 --> 00:32:07.210
on that space is we give people an out, right?

00:32:08.400 --> 00:32:10.240
Someone might be wrestling with something that's

00:32:10.240 --> 00:32:13.180
difficult for them to deal with. And if we break

00:32:13.180 --> 00:32:15.660
that tension, if we break that silence, then

00:32:15.660 --> 00:32:18.839
we give them the ability to snake their way out

00:32:18.839 --> 00:32:21.200
of the conversation. And ultimately, that's not

00:32:21.200 --> 00:32:22.700
going to be best for them. It's a missed opportunity.

00:32:23.339 --> 00:32:25.299
There's another way that people do this as well,

00:32:25.319 --> 00:32:28.900
which is if you're holding space for someone

00:32:28.900 --> 00:32:30.180
who's going through a rough time and you can

00:32:30.180 --> 00:32:32.160
tell they're suffering or they're upset, people

00:32:32.160 --> 00:32:34.099
will often want to say something to break the

00:32:34.099 --> 00:32:36.579
tension. But that's not necessarily for the other

00:32:36.579 --> 00:32:39.880
person's benefit. Yeah. What it really communicates

00:32:39.880 --> 00:32:43.359
is I'm uncomfortable with your emotions and therefore

00:32:43.359 --> 00:32:46.539
I want you to shift out of that emotion because

00:32:46.539 --> 00:32:48.660
it's making me uncomfortable. Yes. And that's

00:32:48.660 --> 00:32:51.099
really selfish because often what we need most

00:32:51.099 --> 00:32:54.039
when we're struggling is just someone to be with

00:32:54.039 --> 00:32:56.160
us, to just say, you know what, I'm with you.

00:32:56.220 --> 00:32:58.119
You're not alone and it's okay for you to be

00:32:58.119 --> 00:32:59.619
feeling what you're feeling right now. Yeah.

00:32:59.680 --> 00:33:01.880
And that's a tough place to come from. I have

00:33:01.880 --> 00:33:03.920
some friends who, you know, anytime there's any

00:33:03.920 --> 00:33:05.680
kind of discomfort, they need to crack a joke.

00:33:06.089 --> 00:33:08.609
You need to just like get back into, to happy.

00:33:08.690 --> 00:33:10.369
That's just how they process it. That's how they

00:33:10.369 --> 00:33:12.230
deal with it. So that's how they avoid it. Well,

00:33:12.269 --> 00:33:16.029
that's how they avoid it. Yeah. Yeah. So belief

00:33:16.029 --> 00:33:19.130
in the other person's goodness and that there's

00:33:19.130 --> 00:33:21.410
some higher intention or commitment or value

00:33:21.410 --> 00:33:24.910
underlying the initial presentation. That's one

00:33:24.910 --> 00:33:29.359
deep interest in curiosity and then space. giving

00:33:29.359 --> 00:33:31.640
them space, holding space for them, and just

00:33:31.640 --> 00:33:34.480
allowing the conversation to breathe and being

00:33:34.480 --> 00:33:36.940
comfortable sitting in silence while being deeply

00:33:36.940 --> 00:33:38.960
connected and present with the other person.

00:33:39.099 --> 00:33:41.480
Yeah. The solution that a person comes up with

00:33:41.480 --> 00:33:43.940
in the moment when they're given that space or

00:33:43.940 --> 00:33:45.940
when they're having the conversation is always

00:33:45.940 --> 00:33:47.480
going to be better than the one that's imposed

00:33:47.480 --> 00:33:49.500
on them from the outside, the one that we try

00:33:49.500 --> 00:33:50.960
and give them, the one that we try and lead them

00:33:50.960 --> 00:33:55.480
to. Yeah, absolutely. And this is where, as a

00:33:55.480 --> 00:33:58.210
listener, you can really facilitate breakthroughs

00:33:58.210 --> 00:34:00.369
for people and lasting lasting transformation

00:34:00.369 --> 00:34:03.769
or change and people will feel like it's genuine

00:34:03.769 --> 00:34:06.509
it'll it'll feel like it's a genuine interaction

00:34:06.509 --> 00:34:09.969
it'll feel like it's it's genuinely based in

00:34:09.969 --> 00:34:12.489
the belief that people are resilient people are

00:34:12.489 --> 00:34:14.610
intelligent and people know what's best for themselves

00:34:14.610 --> 00:34:19.809
so that's an overview on the five levels of listening

00:34:19.809 --> 00:34:23.369
maybe this is a good segue for a plug if you

00:34:24.000 --> 00:34:26.000
are dealing with something, maybe it's a decision

00:34:26.000 --> 00:34:28.800
you haven't made or an issue, an experience you're

00:34:28.800 --> 00:34:31.079
going through, a challenging time. This is where

00:34:31.079 --> 00:34:33.559
reaching out to a coach or a therapist or someone

00:34:33.559 --> 00:34:35.400
who's actually trained to listen at that level

00:34:35.400 --> 00:34:38.880
can be incredibly valuable. So if that's you

00:34:38.880 --> 00:34:41.139
and you're interested, feel free to reach out

00:34:41.139 --> 00:34:44.260
to Patrick or myself at the coordinates in the

00:34:44.260 --> 00:34:47.679
show notes and we'd be happy to help. Okay. So

00:34:47.679 --> 00:34:49.860
just to summarize it, we've got our five levels

00:34:49.860 --> 00:34:53.239
of listening, interrupting, waiting. We've got

00:34:53.239 --> 00:34:56.460
mirroring, mirroring, sensing, and then transformation.

00:34:57.460 --> 00:34:59.860
As always, we hope this was useful and thanks

00:34:59.860 --> 00:35:00.420
for tuning in.