How to Keep Friends and Influence People

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I'm really curious how it is that an otherwise smart person could have this dumb view of

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things.

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Can you help me understand that, Patrick?

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Welcome to Making Yourself Clear, where we explore topics we find interesting on the

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overall theme of clarity of thought and communication.

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I'm Chris.

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I'm Patrick.

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And today we're going to explore how to keep friends and influence people.

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And what we mean by that is referring to this phenomenon of wanting to have a conversation

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with somebody in your circle, maybe it's a family member or a friend or a colleague,

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who has a strongly held opinion or view on something that's very different from yours

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and where there's some emotional charge to it.

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Often this will be some opinion someone else holds that you might find upsetting, or you

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might have an opinion or a view on a topic and they find it upsetting.

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And there's something compelling you to try to talk this through with that person.

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Yeah, we're seeing quite a bit of that now.

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There's been some really tense elections.

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We're seeing it especially in the political sphere where we might have a disagreement

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of opinion with a person who we otherwise care about and it makes it difficult to potentially

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keep them in our lives.

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We're seeing a lot of people getting cut out of other people's lives because of that difference

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of opinion.

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And so really we wanted to just unpack ways in which that we can have those kinds of conversations

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and not have it blow up relationships.

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Absolutely.

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The world is becoming more and more polarized and people are getting more and more separate.

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And if there's anything we can do to help reduce that and help bring people back together

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to have these kinds of conversations in ways that are productive, then we would love to

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do that.

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So I think the first and most important step here, if you're thinking about a conversation

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like this, is to really get clear on why you want to do it in the first place.

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Yeah.

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So why do I want to have this conversation with a person?

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As we alluded to, it possibly is because you care about the person, you want them in your

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life, you want to keep them around.

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So that's going to take some preparation.

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That's going to take some skill, some emotional regulation, some patience as well.

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And there's possibly a little bit of risk involved.

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There is.

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There are no guarantees.

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No matter how skillfully you navigate the conversation and how clear your mind is going

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into it, we can never control how someone else reacts.

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So there is some risk that the conversation or the other person has a negative reaction

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and that it blows up.

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So that's why it's important to get clear on why you want to do it.

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And that's worth double clicking on because we often have multiple motives for doing the

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things that we do.

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And I would say some of those motivations would be what I would call above the line,

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meaning coming from a higher part of ourselves.

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You'd recognize these right away.

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If you're concerned about a difference of opinion causing a rift in a relationship and

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the relationship matters and you want to mend it, well, that's, I'd say, a good reason.

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Or if you're wanting to broaden your perspective and actually learn something from people who

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view a situation differently, these are all good reasons.

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There can also be below the line kinds of reasons.

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There can be some shadow stuff for sure.

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If you want to dominate a conversation or if you just want to be right in the conversation,

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those might not be good reasons to have this particular conversation.

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And here's where it's important to be honest with yourself because we like to whitewash

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our intentions and we'll convince ourselves that we have nothing but the highest intentions.

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But a lot of these shadowy things can sneak in.

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And if you find yourself flipping back and forth between higher and lower intentions

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in the conversation, that becomes evident.

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You may start off with good intent, but then somebody says something that triggers you,

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and now you're all about being right and showing them how wrong they are.

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And that's something to watch for.

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But we'll get into the how-to later.

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Going in, just make sure it's worth it.

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Make sure that your reasons for wanting to have the conversation and the potential benefits

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justify the effort and the risk because these things are hard.

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Yeah.

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So the first thing you want to do after you've come up with a reason as to why you want to

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have the conversation, why is this important, you want to be intentional about your mindset.

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So how am I going to be throughout this conversation and what do I want to ground myself in?

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What's that context that I'm going to keep coming back to?

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Because if this is something that's important to you and there's a huge difference of opinion

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and it's a person you care about, there's going to be some emotional triggers.

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You're probably going to stand to get dysregulated at one point or another.

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So what is it that I'm coming back to?

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What's my true north here?

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So a big part of that is choose a mindset.

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So dialogue versus debate, cooperation versus picking a battle, perspectives and values

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versus positioning.

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Those are some different contexts that we might want to set and dive into a little bit

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here.

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Yeah.

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Really, really good points.

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And often even in the language we use to describe a conversation, we sometimes use the metaphors

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of war, right?

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Like you're staking out a position and then defending it or you're attacking the other

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person's argument.

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And baked into the language we use is this battle sort of metaphor.

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And that affects how we view these things.

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So if you consciously override some of that and say, okay, I don't want this to be a battle.

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I want it to be cooperative.

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I want it to be you and me exploring an issue instead of you versus me.

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Right.

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Yeah.

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So it's a dialogue.

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It's not a debate.

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I'm not coming in with these are my points and I need to prove them.

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It's more about, okay, let's have a conversation and we know that there's probably going to

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be some differences of opinion.

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Yeah.

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And think in terms of perspective rather than position.

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So when you have a position, it has this feeling of rigidity to it and like it's a static thing

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that you're not likely to be uprooted from.

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Whereas if it's a perspective or a vantage point, instead of saying this is my position

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and I'm defending it, it's, hey, come over here and like take a look at the view from

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this part of the hill.

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Maybe it looks a little differently from how you see it.

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And let me come over there and try to look down into the valley from where you stand

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and see what I might see differently.

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Right.

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I love that.

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That's a great way to think about it.

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So instead of I'm standing here, you're standing there.

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It's I'm looking from here and you're looking from there.

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Exactly.

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And let's see if we can get a different vantage point.

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Yeah.

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Another one to keep in mind is just assume positive intent.

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If a person has a strongly held view on something, it's not likely that they hold that view in

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order to piss you off.

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There's something other than that to it and they're not trying to be evil or ignorant

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or insert whatever denigrating adjective you want.

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It's probably not that.

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Yeah.

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No one sets out and says, you know what I'm going to do today?

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I'm going to be a bigot or very few people at some day.

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But like presumably the person you're spending all this effort trying to have this conversation

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with is not someone who you'd put in that category.

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Yeah.

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If they're worth having the conversation with, then they are likely not falling into

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that camp.

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One would hope.

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So that's one is assume positive intent and also look for connection over victory.

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Right?

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We often feel like a conversation or these sorts of debates are something we're trying

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to win.

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And if both sides are trying to win, then it goes very predictably.

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Both sides will leave feeling victorious and having less respect and less affinity for

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and connection with the other person.

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So index on connection as well as what you're talking about.

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But like try to bring yourself back to connection if you find yourself drifting into an adversarial

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stance.

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Right.

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So drifting into an adversarial stance can spark based on the reaction that we have to

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something that somebody says.

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So you might want to position yourself in a space where your mindset is I'm going to

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respond to things that somebody says rather than react to something that somebody says.

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Reaction, you know, reactivity is, it can be violent.

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It can be sort of a snap into that emotional state.

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Right.

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And that's not to say that your emotions are not valid.

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But if you're coming from an emotional place, it can be difficult to respond in a way that

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furthers the dialogue.

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Yeah, I think that's a really good point.

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And the way I like to think of the difference between a response and a reaction is that

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a reaction is automatic.

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It's a thing that it's almost like it happens to us.

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Right.

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Whereas a response is something we consciously choose.

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And so if you notice yourself on autopilot and just kind of thrown around by your own

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emotions, you're likely in a reactive state rather than responsive one.

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And you want to notice that and do what you need to do to self-regulate emotionally.

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Maybe it's pause, take a deep breath, and just get yourself back into a more thoughtful

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state where you can actually respond with your prefrontal cortex rather than reacting

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from the amygdala.

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That's definitely one that hooks me.

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That's one of the only one that hasn't happened to anybody else.

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I'm the only one with that chink in my arm.

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Exactly.

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Okay.

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So what we talked about was assuming positive intent and a big part of that is if you go

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in thinking this person is bigot, this person has the wrong state of mind, if we make negative

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assumptions about the person that we're going to have this conversation with, but you also

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want to make a concerted effort not to attack character.

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And body language is a big part of that too.

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So if we're rolling our eyes when somebody says something, they're going to pick up on

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that and that's going to match up.

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Sarcasm, snark, all of these things.

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What they convey is contempt, which is like really looking down on someone else and viewing

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them as less than.

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I'm guilty of this way more often than I'd like to admit.

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I get super judgy and it's like this contempt, disdain, high and mighty righteousness thing

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that I can get into if I'm angry.

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The other thing too, and one way that this can sneak in, because you may not come into

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the conversation assuming that this person has some character flaw, but what you might

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have whether you know it or not is a belief like, I can't imagine how somebody could hold

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that viewpoint and not be racist, bigoted, whatever, too woke, pick your favorite thing.

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And that's when you walk in with that belief, you're kind of setting yourself up to make

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negative assumptions about the person and your curiosity has shut down.

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Yeah.

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And then you're just going to poison the conversation.

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I mean, you're going to ratchet up the tension, you're going to poison the conversation and

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you're really not going to walk away with anything.

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I like what you said just there, curiosity.

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So curiosity is another thing that as another tool that you can put in your tool belt and

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be curious.

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Why is it that this resonates with you, this particular political candidate or this particular

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point of view?

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What about this is compelling for you?

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The conversation will probably go a lot smoother too.

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Yeah, curiosity is much, much better than judgment and one will kind of displace the

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other.

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When you're in a judgmental state, it has this feeling of certainty to it and certainty

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is the antithesis of curiosity.

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And vice versa.

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If you can bring genuine curiosity back into your intentions, that'll push the judgment

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out of the way.

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And where this can be tricky is if your initial reaction to someone else's position is to

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feel strongly and negatively emotionally about it, it can be a big ask to bring curiosity.

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But one thing that can be helpful is remember that you can be curious about why someone

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else feels a certain way and that's not at all the same as agreeing with their position.

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You're not being asked to submit to or agree to anything.

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You're just trying to understand how they see the world.

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Yeah.

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And I like to use a genuine curiosity because I can come in and I can act curious from a

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place of judgment and say like, why is it that you think that this bigoted view is the

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right way to be?

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That's not going to get me.

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Yeah.

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I'm really curious how it is that an otherwise smart person could have this dumb view of

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things.

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Right.

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Can you help me understand that, Patrick?

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Not that kind of curiosity.

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No, that's not going to get you anywhere.

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It'll get you somewhere, but you may not like it.

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If the point is maintaining this relationship and getting through the murkies, because we're

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going to have that.

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We're going to brush up against things in people that we don't love.

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And so it's about, how do I salvage the relationship?

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How do I make sure that I don't throw the baby out with the bath water?

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So another piece that we want to focus on is having a game plan.

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Yeah.

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And that's a really good point.

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So high stakes conversations of any sort, just like anything that matters to you, you

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want to think about in advance.

243
00:12:33,240 --> 00:12:34,620
You want to plan it out.

244
00:12:34,620 --> 00:12:39,900
You might even want to get someone like a friend or a coach or someone who's neutral

245
00:12:39,900 --> 00:12:42,960
and isn't part of the conversation and role play it in advance.

246
00:12:42,960 --> 00:12:45,400
That allows you to practice how you're going to cue up the conversation.

247
00:12:45,400 --> 00:12:46,800
That's a really valuable tool.

248
00:12:46,800 --> 00:12:47,800
Yeah, that's great.

249
00:12:47,800 --> 00:12:50,520
We actually, we have a mutual friend who calls it a prevent.

250
00:12:50,520 --> 00:12:51,520
A prevent.

251
00:12:51,520 --> 00:12:52,520
Yes.

252
00:12:52,520 --> 00:12:56,400
He gets to vent his point of view and how he feels about the person in the conversation

253
00:12:56,400 --> 00:12:59,300
and get all that judgy stuff out of the way.

254
00:12:59,300 --> 00:13:04,520
And then he's preventing that from coming into the actual conversation when it happens.

255
00:13:04,520 --> 00:13:06,560
Shout out to our friend Andrew for that one.

256
00:13:06,560 --> 00:13:07,560
So back to the game plan.

257
00:13:07,560 --> 00:13:09,320
So what does a game plan look like?

258
00:13:09,320 --> 00:13:14,480
You want to pick a suitable time and place for when you're going to have this conversation.

259
00:13:14,480 --> 00:13:18,240
Kids learn pretty early to be on the lookout for when mom and dad are in a good mood versus

260
00:13:18,240 --> 00:13:19,240
a bad mood.

261
00:13:19,240 --> 00:13:20,240
Right.

262
00:13:20,240 --> 00:13:23,120
And if they're smart, they wait till they're in a good mood before they ask for things.

263
00:13:23,120 --> 00:13:24,120
Right.

264
00:13:24,120 --> 00:13:25,120
So it's something like that.

265
00:13:25,120 --> 00:13:26,680
Set yourself up for success.

266
00:13:26,680 --> 00:13:30,320
So make sure there's adequate time to have the conversation.

267
00:13:30,320 --> 00:13:32,320
Pick a suitable place.

268
00:13:32,320 --> 00:13:36,020
Make sure you are in a conducive emotional state to having this go well.

269
00:13:36,020 --> 00:13:37,020
So what does that mean?

270
00:13:37,020 --> 00:13:42,320
It means calm, centered, balanced, low in reactivity.

271
00:13:42,320 --> 00:13:48,600
I mean, we saw a lot of tough conversations taking place the day after the election.

272
00:13:48,600 --> 00:13:49,600
Right.

273
00:13:49,600 --> 00:13:51,120
That's probably not the time or place to do that.

274
00:13:51,120 --> 00:13:53,620
When I mean, emotions are super high then.

275
00:13:53,620 --> 00:13:56,060
Your candidate won, your candidate lost.

276
00:13:56,060 --> 00:13:57,480
You're probably going through a lot.

277
00:13:57,480 --> 00:13:58,480
Maybe you need to take.

278
00:13:58,480 --> 00:13:59,480
Take a beat.

279
00:13:59,480 --> 00:14:00,480
Yeah.

280
00:14:00,480 --> 00:14:01,480
Yeah.

281
00:14:01,480 --> 00:14:06,240
Whatever it is before you have that conversation with the person who is celebrating this victory

282
00:14:06,240 --> 00:14:08,000
that feels like an absolute.

283
00:14:08,000 --> 00:14:09,000
A loss to you.

284
00:14:09,000 --> 00:14:10,000
Yeah.

285
00:14:10,000 --> 00:14:11,000
Yeah.

286
00:14:11,000 --> 00:14:14,200
And also if you have certain practices that you know are useful to help you get into a

287
00:14:14,200 --> 00:14:18,320
conducive state, like if you meditate, you might want to meditate before having this

288
00:14:18,320 --> 00:14:19,320
conversation.

289
00:14:19,320 --> 00:14:20,320
Great point.

290
00:14:20,320 --> 00:14:23,680
Do some breathing exercises, a bit of yoga, a nice workout.

291
00:14:23,680 --> 00:14:29,600
Like whatever sets you up to be at your best for a conversation like this.

292
00:14:29,600 --> 00:14:31,000
Yeah.

293
00:14:31,000 --> 00:14:36,420
One of the things that I'm curious about Chris is what do I do if things go sideways on me?

294
00:14:36,420 --> 00:14:42,480
One aspect of having a game plan going in is recognizing, okay, you've got a clear intention,

295
00:14:42,480 --> 00:14:46,240
you're in a good state, the conditions are as good as they're going to be, and that's

296
00:14:46,240 --> 00:14:47,360
not a guarantee.

297
00:14:47,360 --> 00:14:50,720
So there are a lot of ways the conversation might go sideways.

298
00:14:50,720 --> 00:14:55,000
And most of those ways are probably things you've experienced before and might be somewhat

299
00:14:55,000 --> 00:14:56,320
foreseeable or predictable.

300
00:14:56,320 --> 00:14:57,320
Right?

301
00:14:57,320 --> 00:15:00,780
So somebody starts to adopt a certain tone of voice, things get tense.

302
00:15:00,780 --> 00:15:03,920
You can feel yourself getting activated.

303
00:15:03,920 --> 00:15:08,920
Actually sit down and think about, okay, if it goes sideways in this particular way, here's

304
00:15:08,920 --> 00:15:10,080
what I'm going to do about it.

305
00:15:10,080 --> 00:15:12,040
Here's what I'm going to say.

306
00:15:12,040 --> 00:15:14,960
If it starts to escalate beyond a certain point, what will you do?

307
00:15:14,960 --> 00:15:17,960
Will you pause the conversation and suggest you circle back to it later?

308
00:15:17,960 --> 00:15:22,420
And that way you're not caught thinking on your feet and relying on impulsive decisions

309
00:15:22,420 --> 00:15:23,560
in the moment.

310
00:15:23,560 --> 00:15:25,960
You've got a consciously chosen game plan.

311
00:15:25,960 --> 00:15:29,520
Soldiers do this in the military, all of their training and the exercises they run are so

312
00:15:29,520 --> 00:15:32,840
that they don't have to figure out what to do while being shot at.

313
00:15:32,840 --> 00:15:36,880
They've trained it and they've ran scenarios that are similar over and over and over again.

314
00:15:36,880 --> 00:15:39,840
So they've got that muscle motor memory for what's going to work as opposed to just panicking

315
00:15:39,840 --> 00:15:40,960
and having to think on the fly.

316
00:15:40,960 --> 00:15:41,960
Right.

317
00:15:41,960 --> 00:15:42,960
So it's what we said earlier, right?

318
00:15:42,960 --> 00:15:44,800
It comes back to that response versus reaction.

319
00:15:44,800 --> 00:15:47,680
If I feel myself reacting, I'm going to take a beat.

320
00:15:47,680 --> 00:15:50,380
And there's the, what we call pause and pivot technique.

321
00:15:50,380 --> 00:15:51,920
So I'm going to take a moment.

322
00:15:51,920 --> 00:15:56,360
I'm just going to pause here and maybe we pivot for the conversation.

323
00:15:56,360 --> 00:15:59,180
Maybe this is not the right time to have, maybe I thought it was and it's no longer

324
00:15:59,180 --> 00:16:00,640
the right time to have the conversation.

325
00:16:00,640 --> 00:16:03,340
So hey, things are getting heated right now.

326
00:16:03,340 --> 00:16:04,620
Why don't we circle back to this?

327
00:16:04,620 --> 00:16:09,760
Can we just take a minute and get out of the, the, the Merck of, of that, that tough conversation?

328
00:16:09,760 --> 00:16:10,760
Yeah.

329
00:16:10,760 --> 00:16:14,280
And if it's escalating to a point where you need to pause the conversation, that's definitely

330
00:16:14,280 --> 00:16:16,520
one way to pivot.

331
00:16:16,520 --> 00:16:19,960
But if you, if you're on your game and you catch it before it gets to that point, you

332
00:16:19,960 --> 00:16:25,260
can sense things are starting to, things are starting to heat up, but they haven't yet,

333
00:16:25,260 --> 00:16:26,260
it's still salvageable.

334
00:16:26,260 --> 00:16:28,200
There's still room to bring this back.

335
00:16:28,200 --> 00:16:31,200
And you can pause and say, Hey, can we take a step back and look at what's most important

336
00:16:31,200 --> 00:16:32,200
here?

337
00:16:32,200 --> 00:16:34,160
Because people often get lost in the weeds.

338
00:16:34,160 --> 00:16:38,320
And if you zoom out to a 10,000 foot view and say, okay, what are we really trying to

339
00:16:38,320 --> 00:16:39,320
accomplish?

340
00:16:39,320 --> 00:16:40,320
What's the goal here?

341
00:16:40,320 --> 00:16:44,040
And reorient yourself towards that or reorient yourself towards what is, what are some things

342
00:16:44,040 --> 00:16:47,120
we value in common here?

343
00:16:47,120 --> 00:16:49,440
Remind yourself that you're not enemies.

344
00:16:49,440 --> 00:16:53,640
You are your collaborators in this exploratory dialogue.

345
00:16:53,640 --> 00:16:56,560
And that comes back to the very first thing we said, get clear on why you want to have

346
00:16:56,560 --> 00:16:57,560
this conversation.

347
00:16:57,560 --> 00:16:58,560
What's your context?

348
00:16:58,560 --> 00:16:59,560
Right?

349
00:16:59,560 --> 00:17:01,040
Well, I want to salvage this friendship.

350
00:17:01,040 --> 00:17:04,580
I want to understand where this person's coming from.

351
00:17:04,580 --> 00:17:06,360
Whatever your why is.

352
00:17:06,360 --> 00:17:09,040
And so that, yeah, coming back to that will really help.

353
00:17:09,040 --> 00:17:11,000
What's the shared goal here?

354
00:17:11,000 --> 00:17:15,560
So in terms of navigating the conversation itself, we've talked about, first of all,

355
00:17:15,560 --> 00:17:16,840
getting clear on why you want to do it.

356
00:17:16,840 --> 00:17:21,480
Then we talked about intentionally choosing a mindset for going in, coming up with a game

357
00:17:21,480 --> 00:17:27,540
plan, meaning when, where, how you're going to get into a good emotional state, how you

358
00:17:27,540 --> 00:17:29,840
will navigate bumps in the road during the conversation.

359
00:17:29,840 --> 00:17:32,480
So we've covered a lot of ground so far.

360
00:17:32,480 --> 00:17:35,160
Next piece is how do you actually do it?

361
00:17:35,160 --> 00:17:36,160
Yeah.

362
00:17:36,160 --> 00:17:39,400
So first of all, setting a time and place is going to be crucial.

363
00:17:39,400 --> 00:17:42,480
That's going to involve a small conversation with the person.

364
00:17:42,480 --> 00:17:49,120
Hey, would it be okay if we had a conversation, you know, tomorrow, later today, next week?

365
00:17:49,120 --> 00:17:51,720
I'd really like to talk to you.

366
00:17:51,720 --> 00:17:55,880
And then stating your intentions upfront, you know, listen, this, this, whatever it

367
00:17:55,880 --> 00:17:59,000
is, this, this election, or maybe it's a personal thing.

368
00:17:59,000 --> 00:18:01,000
Maybe it's an interpersonal conversation.

369
00:18:01,000 --> 00:18:03,720
Maybe it has nothing to do with a larger, with politics.

370
00:18:03,720 --> 00:18:06,000
People play about things that have other than politics.

371
00:18:06,000 --> 00:18:07,200
Is that a thing anymore?

372
00:18:07,200 --> 00:18:08,200
Yeah.

373
00:18:08,200 --> 00:18:13,520
So maybe this is in your relationship with your, with your partner, your spouse that,

374
00:18:13,520 --> 00:18:16,480
you know, I really need to talk to you about this specific thing.

375
00:18:16,480 --> 00:18:20,200
Could we pick a time and place to actually talk about it?

376
00:18:20,200 --> 00:18:26,560
So an open invitation to the person into the conversation, get their consent to participate.

377
00:18:26,560 --> 00:18:28,360
This one is super important.

378
00:18:28,360 --> 00:18:32,360
If you just bring it on somebody and you ambush them into the conversation, then they're in

379
00:18:32,360 --> 00:18:35,640
the position of being in that reactive state.

380
00:18:35,640 --> 00:18:39,080
Because at the beginning of this chat, we talked about if somebody just brings something

381
00:18:39,080 --> 00:18:41,040
on you, you may not be ready for it.

382
00:18:41,040 --> 00:18:42,040
That's right.

383
00:18:42,040 --> 00:18:44,680
Don't put the other person in that position because you're setting, you're setting the

384
00:18:44,680 --> 00:18:46,080
two of you up to fail.

385
00:18:46,080 --> 00:18:47,080
Absolutely.

386
00:18:47,080 --> 00:18:51,880
So a few things happen when you, when you state the intention upfront and that includes,

387
00:18:51,880 --> 00:18:54,200
okay, I'd like to have a conversation with you about X.

388
00:18:54,200 --> 00:18:58,400
My intention is I really want to come to understand your position better.

389
00:18:58,400 --> 00:19:00,480
And I know this has been a source of friction for us in the past.

390
00:19:00,480 --> 00:19:04,520
I'm hoping we can come to more of a shared understanding because I value our relationship

391
00:19:04,520 --> 00:19:09,160
and I don't want this to be in between us.

392
00:19:09,160 --> 00:19:12,960
So that's now you've stated that your intention is something positive that they can likely

393
00:19:12,960 --> 00:19:17,760
align behind as opposed to, Hey, I want to show you what kind of a dummy you are.

394
00:19:17,760 --> 00:19:19,040
And I want you to agree that I'm right.

395
00:19:19,040 --> 00:19:20,040
And you're an idiot.

396
00:19:20,040 --> 00:19:21,040
There you go.

397
00:19:21,040 --> 00:19:24,960
Because the people might assume that when you come at them with something that's counter

398
00:19:24,960 --> 00:19:25,960
to their position.

399
00:19:25,960 --> 00:19:28,640
So state your intention upfront and then invite them in.

400
00:19:28,640 --> 00:19:33,320
And that might look just can be simple as, Hey, I'd really like to have this conversation.

401
00:19:33,320 --> 00:19:35,680
Here's what I would like to get out of it.

402
00:19:35,680 --> 00:19:36,680
Are you open to that?

403
00:19:36,680 --> 00:19:37,680
And it's now a good time.

404
00:19:37,680 --> 00:19:38,680
Right.

405
00:19:38,680 --> 00:19:40,400
And that does a few things.

406
00:19:40,400 --> 00:19:44,200
When you spring something on somebody unannounced, it's an imposition on them.

407
00:19:44,200 --> 00:19:48,240
You're coming at them with your intention and you're presupposing that they will now

408
00:19:48,240 --> 00:19:49,240
have to comply.

409
00:19:49,240 --> 00:19:50,240
Like here's what's happening.

410
00:19:50,240 --> 00:19:51,240
Deal with it.

411
00:19:51,240 --> 00:19:52,240
Right.

412
00:19:52,240 --> 00:19:53,920
And that can feel rather dominating and forceful.

413
00:19:53,920 --> 00:19:55,560
And now they're at the effect of something.

414
00:19:55,560 --> 00:19:58,720
They're kind of a victim of this thing you're doing to them.

415
00:19:58,720 --> 00:20:00,280
Whereas if you say, Hey, like this matters.

416
00:20:00,280 --> 00:20:01,280
I think it's important.

417
00:20:01,280 --> 00:20:04,540
Are you, are you open to exploring this with me?

418
00:20:04,540 --> 00:20:10,280
Most people will say yes, because well, for a few reasons, most people want to see themselves

419
00:20:10,280 --> 00:20:13,680
as the kind of person who would engage in that kind of conversation.

420
00:20:13,680 --> 00:20:18,400
And by agreeing to it, now they've kind of, they've made a commitment to actually be receptive

421
00:20:18,400 --> 00:20:20,320
to having that conversation with you.

422
00:20:20,320 --> 00:20:25,520
And then this consistency principle kicks in where we want to be consistent with what

423
00:20:25,520 --> 00:20:27,960
we've just said about ourselves.

424
00:20:27,960 --> 00:20:32,280
And then the other piece is by getting them to opt in, you're showing some deference

425
00:20:32,280 --> 00:20:35,680
and giving them agency to choose their own adventure.

426
00:20:35,680 --> 00:20:39,880
They're choosing to participate in the conversation now, as opposed to having it happen to them.

427
00:20:39,880 --> 00:20:46,160
So by, by letting them choose, giving them some agency, it really, it helps to just put

428
00:20:46,160 --> 00:20:48,880
them in a position where they're not on the back foot and they're not going to have to

429
00:20:48,880 --> 00:20:51,400
be reactive and they're not going to have to be defensive.

430
00:20:51,400 --> 00:20:55,480
And you can actually get on with having a constructive conversation and hopefully coming

431
00:20:55,480 --> 00:20:59,600
to a point where at the very least you understand one another a little better.

432
00:20:59,600 --> 00:21:00,600
Yeah.

433
00:21:00,600 --> 00:21:03,840
You're going to have much better odds talking to someone who feels empowered, respected,

434
00:21:03,840 --> 00:21:05,880
validated and invited to participate.

435
00:21:05,880 --> 00:21:06,880
Right.

436
00:21:06,880 --> 00:21:11,040
And who feels kind of ambushed or attacked with a bunch of judgment.

437
00:21:11,040 --> 00:21:12,920
So then what are some tools that we can use?

438
00:21:12,920 --> 00:21:17,720
What are some techniques that we can use to make sure that we are doing our best to make

439
00:21:17,720 --> 00:21:24,320
that person feel heard, feel respected, and, and as though this was not just merely, you

440
00:21:24,320 --> 00:21:26,840
know, an attack on their position.

441
00:21:26,840 --> 00:21:31,520
First of all, the biggest thing is listening, right?

442
00:21:31,520 --> 00:21:36,360
If I'm trying to understand your position on something, I need to let you explain to

443
00:21:36,360 --> 00:21:38,440
me why you hold that belief.

444
00:21:38,440 --> 00:21:42,240
And that, again, having you explain something to me doesn't mean that I agree with you.

445
00:21:42,240 --> 00:21:45,160
It doesn't mean that I'm going to change my point of view.

446
00:21:45,160 --> 00:21:50,560
But if the object here is to understand, then I've got to listen.

447
00:21:50,560 --> 00:21:51,560
Yeah.

448
00:21:51,560 --> 00:21:56,000
And we're going to do, I'm sure we'll do a whole other episode on different levels of

449
00:21:56,000 --> 00:21:58,880
listening and unpacking that in greater detail.

450
00:21:58,880 --> 00:22:04,560
But the quick and dirty version would be, there's listening in order to come up with

451
00:22:04,560 --> 00:22:07,840
your really witty, smart response that is the gotcha moment.

452
00:22:07,840 --> 00:22:08,840
That's not what we're talking about.

453
00:22:08,840 --> 00:22:12,560
No, we're talking about actually listening for the purpose of two purposes.

454
00:22:12,560 --> 00:22:16,160
One is really deeply understanding where the person's coming from.

455
00:22:16,160 --> 00:22:21,800
And the second one, which is just as important, maybe more so is having them feel understood.

456
00:22:21,800 --> 00:22:23,140
And those are different things.

457
00:22:23,140 --> 00:22:27,480
You can understand someone and they may or may not know that they may or may not feel

458
00:22:27,480 --> 00:22:28,480
it.

459
00:22:28,480 --> 00:22:29,480
Right.

460
00:22:29,480 --> 00:22:31,720
And what's really important here is that the other person feels understood because that's

461
00:22:31,720 --> 00:22:33,080
disarming.

462
00:22:33,080 --> 00:22:34,440
That's going to bring down the tension.

463
00:22:34,440 --> 00:22:39,880
So you should be able to, at a bare minimum, be able to mirror back whatever that person

464
00:22:39,880 --> 00:22:40,880
has said to you.

465
00:22:40,880 --> 00:22:44,360
And that's going to display that you actually got the content.

466
00:22:44,360 --> 00:22:45,720
Right.

467
00:22:45,720 --> 00:22:49,480
If I'm just sitting here and I've got my point in my head, I'm just waiting for you to stop

468
00:22:49,480 --> 00:22:54,840
talking so that I can jump in and say whatever smart thing that I've been sitting on.

469
00:22:54,840 --> 00:22:56,280
I'm really not listening at that point.

470
00:22:56,280 --> 00:22:57,280
I'm just waiting.

471
00:22:57,280 --> 00:22:58,280
I'm waiting your turn.

472
00:22:58,280 --> 00:22:59,280
Yeah.

473
00:22:59,280 --> 00:23:00,280
So I can interrupt you.

474
00:23:00,280 --> 00:23:04,120
I can wait for you to shut up or I can actually sit down and I can absorb what it is you're

475
00:23:04,120 --> 00:23:06,280
saying and then be able to mirror it back.

476
00:23:06,280 --> 00:23:07,280
Okay.

477
00:23:07,280 --> 00:23:08,280
I hear what you're saying.

478
00:23:08,280 --> 00:23:11,120
I think that this is it and check in.

479
00:23:11,120 --> 00:23:12,120
Right.

480
00:23:12,120 --> 00:23:13,120
Did I get that clear?

481
00:23:13,120 --> 00:23:17,520
Are we operating from the same point where we both understand what this is and what this

482
00:23:17,520 --> 00:23:18,520
means?

483
00:23:18,520 --> 00:23:24,600
There's something else too, which is people's opinions are rarely changed on the basis of

484
00:23:24,600 --> 00:23:25,600
facts and arguments.

485
00:23:25,600 --> 00:23:30,000
As much as we'd like to think that that's how we work, it tends not to be.

486
00:23:30,000 --> 00:23:34,000
And this is where something like the Socratic method comes in so handy.

487
00:23:34,000 --> 00:23:36,960
This is they call it Socratic after Socrates.

488
00:23:36,960 --> 00:23:40,200
And really what he did was he would ask a lot of questions.

489
00:23:40,200 --> 00:23:42,680
And so back to that curiosity thing.

490
00:23:42,680 --> 00:23:47,940
And by asking questions, why is it you feel that way or explain to me how you got there,

491
00:23:47,940 --> 00:23:52,080
it's a much more effective way to understand somebody, but also to persuade them.

492
00:23:52,080 --> 00:23:57,880
So if somebody is espousing a particular position and you know that there's something that they

493
00:23:57,880 --> 00:24:01,600
value that seems to you to maybe be in contrast with that, you can say, okay, so what I'm

494
00:24:01,600 --> 00:24:04,920
hearing is this is how you feel about that issue.

495
00:24:04,920 --> 00:24:09,160
I'm curious about something though, because I know you as someone who values X and I'm

496
00:24:09,160 --> 00:24:10,680
having trouble reconciling those two.

497
00:24:10,680 --> 00:24:13,000
Can you explain to me how you square that circle?

498
00:24:13,000 --> 00:24:14,000
And then listen.

499
00:24:14,000 --> 00:24:15,460
And this isn't, this is not a trap.

500
00:24:15,460 --> 00:24:16,800
This is not for a gotcha.

501
00:24:16,800 --> 00:24:17,920
You're not cross examining them.

502
00:24:17,920 --> 00:24:20,960
You're actually listening with curiosity.

503
00:24:20,960 --> 00:24:23,880
And one of two things can happen and sometimes both.

504
00:24:23,880 --> 00:24:26,020
One at minimum, you'll come to understand them better.

505
00:24:26,020 --> 00:24:30,360
And two, people often soften their positions when faced with these questions like that.

506
00:24:30,360 --> 00:24:32,560
That's why the Socratic method is so powerful.

507
00:24:32,560 --> 00:24:37,640
By being gentle and curious, you may lead them towards some of their own cognitive dissonance.

508
00:24:37,640 --> 00:24:42,160
And when they encounter that, the impulse that they'll have to reconcile that may cause

509
00:24:42,160 --> 00:24:47,200
them to loosen up on some of their more tightly held beliefs and actually become more flexible.

510
00:24:47,200 --> 00:24:53,460
Well, and I think that's something that is important to make a point of.

511
00:24:53,460 --> 00:24:57,160
Just because I have a deeply held belief doesn't mean I thought about it for a really long

512
00:24:57,160 --> 00:24:58,160
time.

513
00:24:58,160 --> 00:25:01,760
I would hope that that's the case, but that's not necessarily true.

514
00:25:01,760 --> 00:25:06,340
Just because I feel some very strong way about something doesn't mean that I've sat down

515
00:25:06,340 --> 00:25:10,100
and I've, I've checked all the angles and done the math.

516
00:25:10,100 --> 00:25:13,240
So exactly having conversations like this.

517
00:25:13,240 --> 00:25:16,980
Again, if you're willing to put in the time and you're willing to come from a place where

518
00:25:16,980 --> 00:25:21,880
you're, you're clean and you don't have, you know, a nefarious intentions or to make somebody

519
00:25:21,880 --> 00:25:28,680
wrong, you may find that the root of the whole thing, which is again, connection, what do

520
00:25:28,680 --> 00:25:30,120
we value together?

521
00:25:30,120 --> 00:25:31,400
All of that sort of stuff.

522
00:25:31,400 --> 00:25:32,400
Yeah.

523
00:25:32,400 --> 00:25:33,400
I think two last points.

524
00:25:33,400 --> 00:25:38,000
One, we've sort of touched on earlier, but it might be worth making explicit.

525
00:25:38,000 --> 00:25:40,080
Index on what they value.

526
00:25:40,080 --> 00:25:43,720
People may have a strongly held belief or even a position on something.

527
00:25:43,720 --> 00:25:48,980
See if you can get past the position into the value that underlies it, because you're

528
00:25:48,980 --> 00:25:53,440
more likely to find alignment around values rather than in the details of a particular

529
00:25:53,440 --> 00:25:54,440
view.

530
00:25:54,440 --> 00:25:55,440
Right.

531
00:25:55,440 --> 00:25:59,120
And then the last thing is be gracious and grateful along the way.

532
00:25:59,120 --> 00:26:02,800
Acknowledge that these conversations are hard and check in with yourself periodically and

533
00:26:02,800 --> 00:26:05,480
with the other person to see how you're doing against your stated intentions.

534
00:26:05,480 --> 00:26:06,480
Right.

535
00:26:06,480 --> 00:26:08,920
So at the beginning of the conversation, you said, Hey, my goals for this conversation

536
00:26:08,920 --> 00:26:10,840
are I'd like to understand you better.

537
00:26:10,840 --> 00:26:15,520
I want us to, with curiosity, come to understand each other's positions better and perspectives

538
00:26:15,520 --> 00:26:19,760
better rather than positions, and I want this to make us feel closer rather than farther

539
00:26:19,760 --> 00:26:20,760
apart.

540
00:26:20,760 --> 00:26:21,760
Right.

541
00:26:21,760 --> 00:26:26,440
For example, partway through the conversation and maybe periodically as you go, check in,

542
00:26:26,440 --> 00:26:30,560
Hey, just let's zoom out and say, we set out to achieve the following goals here.

543
00:26:30,560 --> 00:26:31,560
How are we doing?

544
00:26:31,560 --> 00:26:32,560
Yeah.

545
00:26:32,560 --> 00:26:33,560
Right.

546
00:26:33,560 --> 00:26:34,560
How are we doing against those intentions?

547
00:26:34,560 --> 00:26:36,200
And if you're doing well, then celebrate the win.

548
00:26:36,200 --> 00:26:40,240
If it's not going well, or if it's not heading in the direction of those intentions, then

549
00:26:40,240 --> 00:26:45,080
that's an opportunity to pivot and recalibrate and reset your intentions and get back on

550
00:26:45,080 --> 00:26:46,080
track.

551
00:26:46,080 --> 00:26:48,040
We covered a lot in there.

552
00:26:48,040 --> 00:26:50,720
To summarize it, we had seven things.

553
00:26:50,720 --> 00:26:53,960
We want to make sure we're clear on what we want from the conversation.

554
00:26:53,960 --> 00:26:56,240
We want to be intentional about our mindset.

555
00:26:56,240 --> 00:27:01,280
We want to have a game plan going in, set the stage for the conversation, make sure

556
00:27:01,280 --> 00:27:06,560
that the other person feels heard and respected during the conversation, drill down on values,

557
00:27:06,560 --> 00:27:11,520
index on what you value and what they value, and then be gracious and grateful throughout

558
00:27:11,520 --> 00:27:13,320
the conversation.

559
00:27:13,320 --> 00:27:16,400
If you do decide to take this on, I think it's worthwhile.

560
00:27:16,400 --> 00:27:21,160
I think it's important and the world needs more of this kind of conversation.

561
00:27:21,160 --> 00:27:22,160
Absolutely.

562
00:27:22,160 --> 00:27:24,360
So hats off to you.

563
00:27:24,360 --> 00:27:25,360
It's good work.

564
00:27:25,360 --> 00:27:29,480
It's not easy, but it's worth doing and good on you.

565
00:27:29,480 --> 00:27:31,040
As always, we hope this was useful.

566
00:27:31,040 --> 00:27:32,040
Thanks for tuning in.

567
00:27:32,040 --> 00:27:47,040
We'll see you next time.